Is Mal a Bully?

[Solai]

It takes a lot to shock me when it comes to Firefly. I have listened to countless discussions, participated in numerous debates, read articles, interviews and books and overall consider myself something of an expert on the matter.

When Sean posited his view that he saw Mal as a "my way or the high way" style bully it gave me serious pause mostly because I had never encountered this view before. Mal is generally accepted as a broken, flawed anti-hero...but a bully?

What I would like to do here is not so much argue the point but to collect evidence to support Sean's case. When someone posts an example let's discuss it to determine if it helps or hurts the argument.

I rewatched Serenity and the Train Job with the express purpose of spotting instances of this behavior and I still had trouble finding many examples. The more I looked the more I saw Mal not being a bully though his actions or his inactions. For example:

1. Wouldn't someone who dealt with situations absolutely arm his ship?
2. Wouldn't a bully have authorized torture when interrogating the Fed?
3. On Whitefall when they are scoping the territory Jayne says, "Aren't you sure you don't want to piss yourself like you did with Badger?" Mal doesn't challenge him, snap or anything. He simply says, "Walk soft" "Don't kill anyone if you don't have to"
4. At the end of the show wouldn't a bully have stomped on Jayne's head when Jayne admitted that he would have turned on him if the money was good enough
5. Wouldn't a bully not have let Simon on his crew after the comparisons Simon made of Mal to the perfect alliance officer?

If you pay close attention even when Mal says he is going to do something he always go with what the group feels is right. He doesn't toss River and Simon out, he doesn't drive Inara off the ship.

I admit I may be blind to this, but I simply still don't see it.

[hansioux]

I think Mal wants to think he has become more like Badger. A bully, a crook a bad guy who doesn't care about the rest of the world since the world gave up on him and his cause, but Badger can still smell his sense of morality a mile away.

but it doesn't stop Mal from pretending tho.

By the way, what about Benjamin Sisko from DS9? From the very first episode he bullied Quark into staying on the station. He later bullied the Maquis a coupled of times, even go as far as poisoning a planet. I guess you can argue he is just speaking a language that they will understand to get his point across. But yeah, if Sean also thinks Benjamin Sisko is a bully, then i can see where he is coming from, and i guess by that standard, Mal is also a bully when he needs to be.

[missmuffet]

No I don't think he's a Bully. I think he's a leader. He does what he needs to do to protect his people and his ship. The point is that he pretends to be all bossy and mean but he's really not - unless something happens and he needs to be. If he was really a Bully why would Kaylee feel comfortable enough to kiss him on the cheek and say "I love my captain"?

[ThotFullGuy]

This is very interesting discussion. I too scratched my head a little bit at Sean's viewpoint that Mal is a bully. Although I haven't rewatched Firefly recently, I've seen every episode enough to know it fairly well. But, like Solai did, I'm lookng forward to taking another look with the "bully" question specifically in mind.

Here's my take: Malcom Reynolds is, I think, keenly aware of what's required to be an effiective captain of a ship. And moreover, Mal is essentially the captain of an independent small business. Whether he and his crew eats, survives, profits and keeps flying litterally depends on his decisions.

On top of all that, Mal has been burned by the fact that his decisions (and other's) during the war ---of choosing to stick and fight, has cost lives. So he's wary of getting burned that way again.

I don't know of any case in the show where his seemingly "bully"-like actions weren't motivated by the desire to keep Firefly and her people safe and flying. Being a leader means you have to 'kick people's ass' sometimes even when you don't feel like it.

Also, as Joss Whedon remarked on one of the commentary tracks "Mal is an uncomprimising guy."

All that said, Nathan Fillion, sure does know how to play a convincing bully :) :

http://teaandbooks.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/captain-hammer11.jpg

[missmuffet]

This is very interesting discussion. I too scratched my head a little bit at Sean's viewpoint that Mal is a bully. Although I haven't rewatched Firefly recently, I've seen every episode enough to know it fairly well. But, like Solai did, I'm lookng forward to taking another look with the "bully" question specifically in mind.

Here's my take: Malcom Reynolds is, I think, keenly aware of what's required to be an effiective captain of a ship. And moreover, Mal is essentially the captain of an independent small business. Whether he and his crew eats, survives, profits and keeps flying litterally depends on his decisions.

On top of all that, Mal has been burned by the fact that his decisions (and other's) during the war ---of choosing to stick and fight, has cost lives. So he's wary of getting burned that way again.

I don't know of any case in the show where his seemingly "bully"-like actions weren't motivated by the desire to keep Firefly and her people safe and flying. Being a leader means you have to 'kick people's ass' sometimes even when you don't feel like it.

Also, as Joss Whedon remarked on one of the commentary tracks "Mal is an uncomprimising guy."

All that said, Nathan Fillion, sure does know how to play a convincing bully :) :

http://teaandbooks.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/captain-hammer11.jpg

Well said Thot! :)

[Solai]

Here's my take: Malcom Reynolds is, I think, keenly aware of what's required to be an effiective captain of a ship. And moreover, Mal is essentially the captain of an independent small business. Whether he and his crew eats, survives, profits and keeps flying litterally depends on his decisions.

On top of all that, Mal has been burned by the fact that his decisions (and other's) during the war ---of choosing to stick and fight, has cost lives. So he's wary of getting burned that way again.

I don't know of any case in the show where his seemingly "bully"-like actions weren't motivated by the desire to keep Firefly and her people safe and flying. Being a leader means you have to 'kick people's ass' sometimes even when you don't feel like it.

Also, as Joss Whedon remarked on one of the commentary tracks "Mal is an uncomprimising guy."

Well spoke sir, well spoke.

Many people when arguing this point fall into the leader/owner trap of saying, "A leader's job is to tell people what to do" which is totally wrong. A leader's job is to build concensus even in the face of complete disagreement. Even a dictator must have the support of his lieutenants otherwise they will turn on him. You can only say, "My way or the high way" so many times before people start saying "no."

For me Mal's worst and finest moments as a Captain occur within 20 minutes of each other. When he tells the crew to Reaver-fy Serenity no one agrees with him. He actually pulls his gun out and says, "this is the way it is." That moment is Mal's lowest point in terms of leadership. If you need to mandate your point and pull a gun then you have failed as a leader. If he was less of a leader the crew would have turned around and left him right then and there, he gave them that out.

They didn't, not one of them. They stayed.

Again a leader can't pull that move often but it is telling how those around the leader react when they do. This of course is followed by Mal's finest moment as he tells the crew, "I am to misbehave" and they in turn support him once again, but this time not out of threat but by choice.

This is why I continue to think highly of Mal. He is flawed. He is not perfect. He makes mistakes but he also tends to learn from them, mostly. He is as real a character as I have seen ever.

[ThotFullGuy]

Many people when arguing this point fall into the leader/owner trap of saying, "A leader's job is to tell people what to do" which is totally wrong. A leader's job is to build concensus even in the face of complete disagreement. Even a dictator must have the support of his lieutenants otherwise they will turn on him. You can only say, "My way or the high way" so many times before people start saying "no."


Yeah, point taken. There's obiviously a wide spectrum of types of leadership that are required in different situations, but you're right. No leader is gonna last long unless they inspire their followers to follow them.



For me Mal's worst and finest moments as a Captain occur within 20 minutes of each other. When he tells the crew to Reaver-fy Serenity no one agrees with him. He actually pulls his gun out and says, "this is the way it is." That moment is Mal's lowest point in terms of leadership. If you need to mandate your point and pull a gun then you have failed as a leader. If he was less of a leader the crew would have turned around and left him right then and there, he gave them that out.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that moment when Mal pulls his gun, wasn't that a little trick played on the audience? In other words, we're shocked (and the Firefly crew is shocked) because we think he's pulling a gun on his people to threaten them, but in fact what he was doing was getting his gun ready so he could walk over and shoot that almost-dead reaver?

Maybe there's no difference really and Mal intentionally was trying to communicate an "I'm not fraking around" message.

[hansioux]

On top of all that, Mal has been burned by the fact that his decisions (and other's) during the war ---of choosing to stick and fight, has cost lives. So he's wary of getting burned that way again.


yeah, i think that's the thing that haunts him the most.

[Solai]

Yeah, point taken. There's obiviously a wide spectrum of types of leadership that are required in different situations, but you're right. No leader is gonna last long unless they inspire their followers to follow them.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that was the argument you were making. Quite the opposite, I should have said specifically I respected the fact you didn't fall into the trap.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that moment when Mal pulls his gun, wasn't that a little trick played on the audience? In other words, we're shocked (and the Firefly crew is shocked) because we think he's pulling a gun on his people to threaten them, but in fact what he was doing was getting his gun ready so he could walk over and shoot that almost-dead reaver?

Maybe there's no difference really and Mal intentionally was trying to communicate an "I'm not fraking around" message.

I think you are right on both counts. You are right he didn't pull it out as a threat, but it doesn't really matter. It punctuates the point he is making that he is deadly serious and willing to stand behind his assertion. Gunning down the Alliance pilot in cold blood puts a bow on the point.

[LordCorbin]

Mal definitely operates with a 'take it or leave it' mentality and when hes made a decision the crew can follow or get out of the way. By that point he'll brook no dissension, simple as that. His delivery, I believe, is what sets Sean off. Theres no hand holding, no 'we are all in this together so let me explain where Im coming from.' Hes not a bully in the traditional sense of employing force to achieve some personal empowerment. A woman like Zoe wouldnt have followed him all those years were that the case.

[coco]

I think the problem with defining Mal as a bully is that the definition of 'bully' itself has varying degrees. There's also physical vs. emotional bullying. Another disctinction is whether he is a bully or merely someone who bullies in certain situations. There's a small but distinct difference there. I think. :D I don't know!

Either way, I think Mal has a tendency to be cruel to people in order to coerce/influence them into doing something he wants, which is just one particular leading style that's effective but not everyone likes. I don't think he does it for his own amusement, there's always a underlying reason for it that at times isn't even selfish. And he also takes it as well as he gives it too. (And with Inara, it's almost like some kind of weird flirting.) He's also seen as being sorry for saying something that truly hurt someone who was defenseless as well (in the case with Kaylee). Finally, Zoe, someone who's known Mal the longest, doesn't take his bullying too seriously - and in that respect I have the impression that Mal isn't really a bully by nature, but sometimes bullies so people think he is one, given his choice of occupation.

Frankly he cares too much about his family, friends, and even the whole world (in Serenity) to be considered a real bully.

[ThotFullGuy]

I think you are right on both counts. You are right he didn't pull it out as a threat, but it doesn't really matter. It punctuates the point he is making that he is deadly serious and willing to stand behind his assertion. Gunning down the Alliance pilot in cold blood puts a bow on the point.

Ah, of course. That was an Alliance guy he shot (I don't know why I thought it was a reaver ---a reaver wouldn't make sense in that situation).

I felt, as an audience member, in that situation there wasn't a lot of sympathy for that wounded Alliance pilot. Given that the Alliance ship just killed everyone in that colony including our beloved Shepard Book, Mal shooting that wounded Alliance guy in cold blood felt ---dare I say it---satisfying.

[missmuffet]

Mal definitely operates with a 'take it or leave it' mentality and when hes made a decision the crew can follow or get out of the way. By that point he'll brook no dissension, simple as that. His delivery, I believe, is what sets Sean off. Theres no hand holding, no 'we are all in this together so let me explain where Im coming from.' Hes not a bully in the traditional sense of employing force to achieve some personal empowerment. A woman like Zoe wouldnt have followed him all those years were that the case.

Sean also really doesn't like authority figures anyway - he had the same problem with Papadama and Roslyn during the last season of BSG - Sean doesn't like being given ordes under any circumstances so he wouldn't really do well in a situation where there is a clear person in charge who doesn't need input to make a decision. Those people on that ship trust Mal with their lives - they trust him enough to know that even when he's being a dick they do what he says because he's doing what is best for their survival - also - it's his ship and he's the captain end of story.

[Uchiha Daisuke]

Being in authority or using ones authority is has nothing to do with bullying. It can be used to bully, but telling someone what to do is not an act of it. The whole reason for authority is actually to benefit everyone involved. That is the whole key to leadership. I think the main definition of a bully is one that takes pleasure in the degradation of others. Also one who intimidates others to get their way. Mal does none of this. At his core he is is a moral person which is the opposite of a bully. I think the key with Mal is that he also has a problem with authority, that is why freedom is so important to him. As Chuck said, Mal snapped at the Battle of Serenity Valley and has chosen to be a different person. The whole "my way or the highway" is Mal's way of not getting too close to others. I also have a major problem with this type of attitude but I can't recall an instance in my life or on TV that I would consider bullying.

So, is Mal a bully? Hellz no! Is he guilty of rubbing people the wrong way or being a little douchey at times? Hellz yes!

[LordCorbin]

Also one who intimidates others to get their way. Mal does none of this.
He sure does. He intimidates his crew into following orders on a number of occasions. He doesnt do it with malice, but he does do it.

[hansioux]

He sure does. He intimidates his crew into following orders on a number of occasions. He doesn't do it with malice, but he does do it.

In the movie, Mal was saying you either work with him or you leave, if you stay only to get in the way, he will shoot you. I don't think that's bullying. He has given them a choice. Exact words are: "So I hear a word from any of you that ain't taking your leave or helping me out, I will shoot you down." Before that Mal actually explained why he wants to use their friends' body to disguise Serenity as a reaver ship. If it is bullying, he should have only given them two choices, work or die. In reality, Mal gave them 3, it's hardly bullying.

As for the pilot, I am not exactly sure which part Sean is referencing to.

Mal did pull his gun on Simon, but that's when he thought Simon was a mole. The first bully is the Doctor. Simon give Mal two choices, Make a run from the Alliance cruiser, or let Kaylee die. That's 2 choices, that's bullying. Mal's attitude toward Simon for most of the pilot episode is in response to Simon forcing his hand using Kaylee's life as bargaining tool. Mal is a tooth for a tooth kind of guy, especially when you are not a part of his crew. Simon threatened his crew, so he threatens Simon.

If that's bullying, then fine, like I said, i've seen Captain Sisko done worse. They are all bullies. But I don't agree what he did in the Serenity movie is bullying.

[Uchiha Daisuke]

He sure does. He intimidates his crew into following orders on a number of occasions. He doesnt do it with malice, but he does do it.

Getting one to follow your orders is a discussion about ones leadership skills, not that they are a bully. If you had a party and people came over and started messing with your stuff, it would mot be bullying to request them to stop. Even if you ended up shooting them it would not be bullying. Serenity is Mal's ship and his word is law. Hansioux is right on when saying that Simon is more of a bully. "To get ones on way" is not as accurate as I meant. To take advantage of others, for personal gain/ego or to get something that isn't rightfully yours is a better definition.

[Pan]

Just some thoughts here because I just listened to #209.

I would have to agree, Mal is a bully. It's not even about his leadership decisions. I think I could justify some of that, particularly with the reaver incident. I mean, given the circumstances I think there are very few people in history (let alone fiction) that could convince a small, utterly unequipped group of people to waltz into reaver territory, just to waltz right back into the Alliance's arms after. In fact, given the choice I think I probably would rather follow the guy willing to take a cheap shot just to get out safely. But, that's me.

What I don't like is Mal's verbal abuse, mostly directed at Inara, sometimes Simon and at least once towards Kaylee. Classic bullying behavior. He's frustrated at whatever he and Inara have going on (or not, rather) and he takes it out on Inara, puts her down for being a companion - a completely legit and respected position every where else in the 'verse*. He gives Kaylee - of all people - a big put down just for mentioning Inara and gawking over some dress. Putting some one down because you're mad about something else? Because you can and it makes you feel a bit better for a little while? Bully.


*seriously, a respected position where you're paid to have sex with the fantastically rich person of your choice?

[LordCorbin]

I never said Mal was a bully and am not arguing that case. Just pointing out that on occasion he does use intimidation to get people to follow orders. Sometimes hes also a dick, but I dont count that as bullying.

RE: A comment on the podcast about how Picard never has to bully anyone. An unfair comparison I think. You can probably count on your hand the number of times his leadership is challenged, not because he is some uber-leader but because the rest of his crew is for the most part, poorly developed. When he is challenged, its some plot contrivance and not because its true to character.

[Uchiha Daisuke]

What I don't like is Mal's verbal abuse, mostly directed at Inara, sometimes Simon and at least once towards Kaylee. Classic bullying behavior. He's frustrated at whatever he and Inara have going on (or not, rather) and he takes it out on Inara, puts her down for being a companion - a completely legit and respected position every where else in the 'verse*. He gives Kaylee - of all people - a big put down just for mentioning Inara and gawking over some dress. Putting some one down because you're mad about something else? Because you can and it makes you feel a bit better for a little while? Bully.


This is not bullying, it is his sense of humor and personality. Saying things that offend people or hurt them in its self isn't bullying. I maintain that it is the intention behind the words that is bullying, not the words themselves. Being a sarcastic or a smart-ars is not the same as bullying even if the other person is hurt by both. When Mal made that comment to Kaylee it was not meant as an insult, in his way I believe Mal meant it as a compliment. When he realized she was hurt by it he was visibly sorry about it. In his way he was commenting on her talent and how at home she is in an engine room. It came out all backassward but not as an insult.

As far as Inara goes I think Mal really dislikes what she does, is jealous of her customers, is in love with her and is a bit intimidated by her. The stuff he says isn't coming from a place of hate. It is because of jealousy, insecurity, affection, ego and that he knows she is worth so much more then having to sell herself.

At least that is my take.


I never said Mal was a bully and am not arguing that case. Just pointing out that on occasion he does use intimidation to get people to follow orders. Sometimes hes also a dick, but I dont count that as bullying.

RE: A comment on the podcast about how Picard never has to bully anyone. An unfair comparison I think. You can probably count on your hand the number of times his leadership is challenged, not because he is some uber-leader but because the rest of his crew is for the most part, poorly developed. When he is challenged, its some plot contrivance and not because its true to character.

Point taken and my apologies.

It is also not fair to compare a military ship to Serenity. It is also completely opposite. Everyone in Starfleet is there to better themselves and do that particular job. The whole idea of bullying in the Federation is unheard of.

[hansioux]

About Mal using intimidation to get people to follow orders part, i would like people to list a few examples, because i can't think of any.

the two examples i've heard so far, i have give reasons why they are not bullying. in the pilot he was reacting to simon's bullying. in the movie, he was giving them a choice more than forcing them to work or die.

Can Mal be a dick? Absolutely. Part of Mal's being a dick is his sense of humor, and he calls it like he sees it. but most of it is him shielding himself from anyone getting too close. That applies especially to Inara. It doesn't change the fact that he can be a dick. But to people who know him, they can see right through it.

As for Mal intimidating his crew, I think the one person he uses intimidation on the most is Jayne. But if Mal didn't do that to Jayne, Jayne will be running the ship while pointing the gun at everyone.

[Nickname Boomer]

bully

Main Entry: 3bully
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bul·lied; bul·ly·ing
transitive verb
1 : to treat abusively
2 : to affect by means of force or coercion

so yes he's done that; so he's a bully; that said he's a very good leader, I think its mostly cause he's a military minded captain trying to deal with a relatively undisciplined civilian crew. I think those instances he was forced to resort to bullying were mostly truly dire circumstances

that said he's just awesome. He can be an ass and a bully; but absolutely in all ways a better leader than Adama...

[hansioux]

bully

Main Entry: 3bully
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bul·lied; bul·ly·ing
transitive verb
1 : to treat abusively
2 : to affect by means of force or coercion

so yes he's done that; so he's a bully;

that's two definitions. He might fit the first one. He does verbally abuse others sometimes, especially to Inara. But that is a rather loose definition of being a bully. Perhaps a dick would fit that definition better.

As for the second definition, i still haven't seen any examples given.

In the movie he said work with him or leave, but stay to get in the way then he will shoot them. that's not coercing them to work him, just telling them not to get in his way, working with him or not is a choice up to his crew.

[Uchiha Daisuke]

I think we are falling into the same trap as the d-bag vs evil pos debate. Where is Steve when you need him? :D

Not all dicks are bullies; but all bullies are dicks. Not all dicks use force to get their point across, but bullies use force it get what they want in the end. IYKWIM :p

To pull out a dictionary definition is like following the "Letter of the Law" rather then the "Spirit of the Law". Ultimately for me this whole discussion boils down to what your reaction is when you watch. Do you think "What a bully!" or "What a dick!"? It is really subjective because there are also others that think "Good choice!" or even "Aren't you going a bit light on them?". More then anything to do with Firefly, your opinion here speaks volumes about who you are as a person. Not to say one is better, just that it is interesting.

I agree with hansioux that breaking down certain scenes, like the one with Kaylee, is far better then defining what being a bully means. Besides, with a definition like to treat abusively or to affect by means of force or coercion that would make every person in the world a bully and the point would no longer matter.

[hansioux]

Not all dicks use force to get their point across

well, force is required at some point.... IYKWIM

[Nickname Boomer]

that's two definitions. He might fit the first one. He does verbally abuse others sometimes, especially to Inara. But that is a rather loose definition of being a bully. Perhaps a dick would fit that definition better.

As for the second definition, i still haven't seen any examples given.

second definition was in out of gas when wash won't leave Zoe Mal grabs him and smashes him into the hull or something like that.

that said i don;t think it was unappropriated but it was bullying

[hansioux]

second definition was in out of gas when wash won't leave Zoe Mal grabs him and smashes him into the hull or something like that.

that said i don;t think it was unappropriated but it was bullying

but that is like saying someone slapping a person in shock to get them to snap out of it is considered a bully.

Just to clear what the situation was, Wash was overwhelmed by Zoe's injury. If Wash didn't man his post, they wouldn't have figured out how bad things were and the entire crew would die.

[Nickname Boomer]

Not all dicks are bullies; but all bullies are dicks. Not all dicks use force to get their point across, but bullies use force it get what they want in the end. IYKWIM :p


well, force is required at some point.... IYKWIM

okay i am know legally obligated to post this

NSFW not even close but i just gotta do it

zcAaertdaQk&feature=related

[Nickname Boomer]

but that is like saying someone slapping a person in shock to get them to snap out of it is considered a bully.

Just to clear what the situation was, Wash was overwhelmed by Zoe's injury. If Wash didn't man his post, they wouldn't have figured out how bad things were and the entire crew would die.

i think it was more than that; Wash wasn't hysterical, He simply wanted to be at his wifes side above all else. like i said before Mal was doing it for a greater purpose, but he bullied him back into the pilots chair which saved all there lives i might add so he was a bully but it was also the right thing to do as a leader.

[hansioux]

NSFW not even close but i just gotta do it


you need to get this to the greatest speech of all time thread!!

[Nickname Boomer]

you need to get this to the greatest speech of all time thread!!

I really considered it; but i was going for inspiration over there, not the cold hard truth of the world. this is more of a words of wisdom thread.

[Uchiha Daisuke]

well, force is required at some point.... IYKWIM

How dare you force me to picture those words coming out of Summer's mouth! :mad:

You bully! :p

[hansioux]

How dare you force me to picture those words coming out of Summer's mouth! :mad:

You bully! :p

weirdly, that does sound like something Cameron might say.

[fastcart]

weirdly, that does sound like something Cameron might say.

River might say them in Chinese.

[dxf]

A couple people have mentioned this, and I agree: two key ingredients in bully psychology are 1) malice and 2) sadism. Maybe 3) doing it for personal gain. Mal can be a dick, but he doesn't do it to get his kicks. It's always to advance his team, whoever that may be.

[Rendfest]

I don't think he is a bully. A bully doesn't feel bad when they hurt peoples feelings & Mal does. I think we do need to remember he is a capitan with military training & excpects orders to be followed. I think some Heinlein reading on space law would be important to keep in mind here too. A captain must be obeyed.

[dxf]

I don't think he is a bully. A bully doesn't feel bad when they hurt peoples feelings & Mal does. I think we do need to remember he is a capitan with military training & excpects orders to be followed. I think some Heinlein reading on space law would be important to keep in mind here too. A captain must be obeyed.

Ah, space law. Welcome aboard!

[NothingButheRain]

Very interesting discussion. I like some of you was thrown by Sean's view of Mal as a bully. I've been watching some Firefly with this in mind, and I just don't see it.

Mal's the captain. He takes seriously the responsibility to protect his crew and Serenity. In a life and death situation Mal does what he thinks will best give them a chance at survival.

I love my Captain.

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq42/NothingButheRain/Firefly/images-6.jpg

[TPO]

Sorry for coming to the party late. I didn't realise this thread was here and posted the below in the thread for podcast 209. Hope no-one minds the X-post.
----

Re the whole Mal Bully conversation. I can see where you guys are coming from, but I can also see why people don't agree quite vehemently.

For me, while he exhibits some dubious behaviour, Mal is not at his heart a bully. A through and through Bully is someone like Biff from BTTF, who is a git, enjoys being a git and doesn't care how it impacts other people. A true bully wouldn't have given the medicine back in Train Job.

Mal isn't like that. At heart he is a good and courageous person, but at times he does stuff which upsets others. I don't think he in any way revels in this, and for the most part I think he either regrets or doesn't realise what he's doing. I think he's also broken, thanks to Serenity Valley, and I suspect that is a large part of it. Possibly this would have been explored more if the series had continued. I think what I'm trying to say is that he acts as a bully sometimes but isn't inherantly one. (if you'll pardon the split hair).

To go into some specifics. I see three places where he really shows this stuff off.

1. When he orders people around as if he and they were in the millitary.

I totally get what Chuck was saying about leadership, and in the opening scene in the episode Serenity Mal very clearly has that. However, one of the key ways the millitary differs from civilian life is that while great leadership is desirable, absolute discipline is a fundamental concept and must be upheld at all costs. This harks back to when men were lined up and ordered to march into fire in formation and operate in a coordinated way following orders (e.g. Zulu). Or to Naval combat in the age of sail. The millitary cannot afford for individual soldiers to start questioning orders, even if they are right, or the whole thing falls appart. This isn't fun if you are at the receiving end of the orders, but that's probably why Shaun should never be a soldier :) The way Mal behaves would be completely appropriate and legal within the confines of a millitary campaign, especially a desperate losing campaign such as he fought in. Incidentaly, Mal's unswerving loyalty to his people is another aspect of this.

Where Mal falls down (and I've seen this with real ex-millitary people) is that he can't get his head round civilian life, especially having been on the losing side. The way he behaves is appropriate in the millitary, but not outside it. Something that the show is clearly aware of and lampshades via Wash and his frequent comments to Zoe.

I think the reason for this, which harks back to Chuck's comments on leadership, is that Mal has lost his faith.

"A man does not have himself killed for a half-pence a day or for a petty distinction. You must speak to the soul in order to electrify him."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Mal believed in independence and had his faith crushed when they abandoned him and ultimately lost. He has been left adrift in a verse he struggles to deal with and not beleiving in anything beyond himself. So he falls back on what he knows and is good at, the millitary way of life. This is a failing of his, a weakness. You can call it bullying, but to be honest I think it over-simplifies what is going on. I think the way the other characters put up with this behaviour indicates that they see this as well. He isn't at heart a bully, he's just broken and adrift and getting by the only way he knows how.

2. The way he speaks to Inaria.

This is a lot easier to explain. He loves her and cares for her, but struggles to put his faith in anything after what happened last time, especially given what she does (which he likely privately sees as a snub to him). It's hardly an uncommon reaction for people to react the way he does to something they desire but are afraid of. It's not particularly nice, but it's very human. Again, to me this doesn't show him as a to the core bully.

3. The way he speaks to Kayleigh (especially in Shindig)

To me, this is the least excusable, but also the most obvious. He's just being a boorish bloke who shoots off his mouth before he thinks. You could probably also make some argument that he sees Kayleigh as 'one of the guys' and assumes she'll be cool about this sort of thing in the knock about way small units can be. I think that's a bit of a reach though. TBH, I struggle most with this as there is no obvious backstory explanation for it. If you contrast how he reacts to Jayne being rude about Kayleigh to how he talks to her in Shindig, it makes him a hypocrite. (I know the way he speaks to Inaria already does that, but there's a reason there). Mal is lots of things, but he's genrally true to himself. I'm inclined to put it down to poor writing and not build a larger story out of it.

So, in summary I think Mal displays some behaviour which can be classed as bullying, but I can't see him as a bully himself. To give another example, I can't picture a bully behaving as he did with his 'bride'.

[LordCorbin]

3. The way he speaks to Kayleigh (especially in Shindig)

To me, this is the least excusable, but also the most obvious. He's just being a boorish bloke who shoots off his mouth before he thinks. You could probably also make some argument that he sees Kayleigh as 'one of the guys' and assumes she'll be cool about this sort of thing in the knock about way small units can be. I think that's a bit of a reach though. TBH, I struggle most with this as there is no obvious backstory explanation for it. If you contrast how he reacts to Jayne being rude about Kayleigh to how he talks to her in Shindig, it makes him a hypocrite. (I know the way he speaks to Inaria already does that, but there's a reason there). Mal is lots of things, but he's genrally true to himself. I'm inclined to put it down to poor writing and not build a larger story out of it.



This is quite easily explained, or maybe its just the way I saw it. He lashed out at Kayleigh because he had no outlet for his feelings about Inara (who was going to the ball as well). Childish and rude to be sure but understandable. Sort of like a kid saying 'your coloring book is stupid and you're ugly too!' when a classmate wont let him borrow a crayon. Translation: I wish Inara wasnt going to the ball with some rich handsome guy and was hanging out with me instead, but since Im too confused and or cowardly in regards to my feelings for her Ill lash out whenever Im reminded of what Im losing. Geez, I remember having a better analogy for that.

And that certainly makes him a hypocrite when he reprimands Jayne for the same insensitivity.

[Sithwitch]

Okay, so I'm rewatching "Shindig" because... well, it's a fun episode and the recent mentioning of favorite episodes got me wanting to. It was either this or "Out of Gas," and I didn't want to cry.

Anyway, not even fifteen minutes into the episode and Mal's already needled Inara about paying customers and Mal snapping at Kaylee about the frilly dress. (Oh, and here he is giving Kayle the frilly dress!) Do I see these things as bullying? It could be seen that way. I don't, not really. Especially not compared to Atherton Wing, who is very firmly in the bully territory. I think Mal's needling of Inara is the closest to bullying behavior--you can't convince me that he's not doing it because the thought of someone he might very well love being with other people hurts him so he wants to hurt her back. The snapping at Kaylee? (Oh, I love Kaylee, she's being so cute right now.) I don't think it's any more bullying than it is when my friends snap at me for wandering off topic like I frequently do. It's not right, but people are never perfect. So yeah, I think being completely disillusioned made Mal into something of a bully, but not completely so. He's still trying to do the right thing somewhere down in there, but it's like sometimes he forgets how to on the little things.

Funny thing that I thought of the other day. We see heroic!Mal being broken during "Serenity pt. 1," and we see him on his way to being put back together in "Serenity."

Also re: Shindig, Dr. Giggles is in this episode as the guy Mal's there to talk to. I can't take him seriously because I keep seeing him as an evil dentist.

[frakkintalos]

Please see here (http://forum.galacticwatercooler.com/showpost.php?p=273613&postcount=95).