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Thread: God and BSG - an atheist rant

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    Alpaca Roman Sandstorm's Avatar
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    Default God and BSG - an atheist rant

    Right-o, let's talk about god. Let's assume he exists. There are two possibilities which flow from this assumption:

    1. God is omnipotent (not omnivorous, as Homer thinks),
    2. God is not omnipotent.

    There's no other choices here: it's either one or the other. Please, do tell if there is another choice.

    OK, let's go with (1): God is omnipotent.

    He knows all. He is everywhere. The laws of the universe do not apply to him. He is infinite. He knows every event which has ever occurred, and every event which will ever occur.

    Oops. Hit a roadblock here. If he knows *everything* which will occur, then what is the value, what is the point of free will for humans? What choice can any human make that is not already foretold and preordained? If god knows what is going to happen with the free will he has given humans, then what is the purpose of *anything*? We can only do what god already knows we are going to do. BY DEFINITION. That's what omnipotent means.

    Thus, there's no point in the entire universe. At the very moment of creation, god knows every little thing that is every going to happen, and the whole thing is simply a circus, a charade. Stars form. Stars explode. Planets form. Life develops. People do things. People die. Stars die. Universe grinds to halt. And *NOTHING* that an omnipotent god doesn't know right from the start.

    Craaaaaap.

    (2) Sounds more inviting. But then, it's not god. Just some alien dude with some superior technology and/or inexplicable powers. And he *doesn't know* what's going to happen, doesn't know your choices.

    But then, what's the purpose of a god in this case? What does this god explain that purely natural forces cannot? In what way is the weak-god universe better than a no-god universe? If he is not omnipotent, then what is he? A meddler? A Loki? A frakkin' intergalactic do-gooder?

    And *how* does he decide to interfere with humans? What criteria does he use? Who deserves to get visions, and who does not? And *why* does he give silly breadcrumb trails, and hints and clues, instead of just saving the peoples he (allegedly) cares for?

    Sorry, this bucket is full of holes as well. Neither one makes sense. (And this is correct. Neither do.)

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    Alpaca Prime Armando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Sandstorm View Post
    Right-o, let's talk about god. Let's assume he exists. There are two possibilities which flow from this assumption:

    1. God is omnipotent (not omnivorous, as Homer thinks),
    2. God is not omnipotent.

    There's no other choices here: it's either one or the other. Please, do tell if there is another choice.

    OK, let's go with (1): God is omnipotent.

    He knows all. He is everywhere. The laws of the universe do not apply to him. He is infinite. He knows every event which has ever occurred, and every event which will ever occur.

    Oops. Hit a roadblock here. If he knows *everything* which will occur, then what is the value, what is the point of free will for humans? What choice can any human make that is not already foretold and preordained? If god knows what is going to happen with the free will he has given humans, then what is the purpose of *anything*? We can only do what god already knows we are going to do. BY DEFINITION. That's what omnipotent means.

    Thus, there's no point in the entire universe. At the very moment of creation, god knows every little thing that is every going to happen, and the whole thing is simply a circus, a charade. Stars form. Stars explode. Planets form. Life develops. People do things. People die. Stars die. Universe grinds to halt. And *NOTHING* that an omnipotent god doesn't know right from the start.

    Craaaaaap.

    (2) Sounds more inviting. But then, it's not god. Just some alien dude with some superior technology and/or inexplicable powers. And he *doesn't know* what's going to happen, doesn't know your choices.

    But then, what's the purpose of a god in this case? What does this god explain that purely natural forces cannot? In what way is the weak-god universe better than a no-god universe? If he is not omnipotent, then what is he? A meddler? A Loki? A frakkin' intergalactic do-gooder?

    And *how* does he decide to interfere with humans? What criteria does he use? Who deserves to get visions, and who does not? And *why* does he give silly breadcrumb trails, and hints and clues, instead of just saving the peoples he (allegedly) cares for?

    Sorry, this bucket is full of holes as well. Neither one makes sense. (And this is correct. Neither do.)

    They don't make sense only in that you're defining the word "God" in terms of your first condition. Think, instead, of Clarke's law: any suficiently advanced technology (or, I suppose, life form) is indistinguishable from magic. To us, an advanced being (the Star Child, or Ron Moore, say...) would be as unto a god. But that is not necessarily the case. We could simply be talking about very advanced, very highly evolved, very "tuned in" being(s) here that have little to do with our notions of God or the gods, but which we lack the knowledge or even the basic vocabulary to come to terms with.

    Rememember, "he doesn't like that name."

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    Alpaca Prime missmuffet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armando View Post
    They don't make sense only in that you're defining the word "God" in terms of your first condition. Think, instead, of Clarke's law: any suficiently advanced technology (or, I suppose, life form) is indistinguishable from magic. To us, an advanced being (the Star Child, or Ron Moore, say...) would be as unto a god. But that is not necessarily the case. We could simply be talking about very advanced, very highly evolved, very "tuned in" being(s) here that have little to do with our notions of God or the gods, but which we lack the knowledge or even the basic vocabulary to come to terms with.

    Rememember, "he doesn't like that name."
    That is an excellent way to put it Armando - I agree totally.
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    Alpaca Prime CylonMATRIX's Avatar
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    Here's a more ancient interpretation : God is unknowable.


    Just so we're on the same page

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    Alpaca Prime missmuffet's Avatar
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    I have said it before and I'll say it again - i don't understand why we have to project our own personal world view into fiction. The world that RDM created is obviously a made up world - it's not real. We are not really descendants of the survivors of Galactica.....Hera is not really Mitocondrial Eve. It's a story - and in that story God exists. Doesn't mean God does or does not exist in our world.

    I for one am way more satisfied that they paid off a theme that has run through the entire show - I would have been kind of let down if Baltar's head six had turned out to be a chip in his brain...would that have made more technical sense? Probably. But I think it's cool that she really was a messenger from god like she always said she was.
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    Alpaca Prime wavilyem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missmuffet View Post
    It's a story - and in that story God exists. Doesn't mean God does or does not exist in our world.
    The thing I wonder about is whether the Cylons' believe in the One True God came from an angel appearing to one of the Cylons even before Caprica Six resurrected and started seeing her Head Baltar.

    Oh, and it was awesome meeting you in person!

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    Alpaca Prime Mr. Lister, Sir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Sandstorm View Post
    Right-o, let's talk about god. Let's assume he exists. There are two possibilities which flow from this assumption:

    1. God is omnipotent (not omnivorous, as Homer thinks),
    2. God is not omnipotent.

    There's no other choices here: it's either one or the other. Please, do tell if there is another choice.

    OK, let's go with (1): God is omnipotent.

    He knows all. He is everywhere. The laws of the universe do not apply to him. He is infinite. He knows every event which has ever occurred, and every event which will ever occur.

    Oops. Hit a roadblock here. If he knows *everything* which will occur, then what is the value, what is the point of free will for humans? What choice can any human make that is not already foretold and preordained? If god knows what is going to happen with the free will he has given humans, then what is the purpose of *anything*? We can only do what god already knows we are going to do. BY DEFINITION. That's what omnipotent means.

    Thus, there's no point in the entire universe. At the very moment of creation, god knows every little thing that is every going to happen, and the whole thing is simply a circus, a charade. Stars form. Stars explode. Planets form. Life develops. People do things. People die. Stars die. Universe grinds to halt. And *NOTHING* that an omnipotent god doesn't know right from the start.

    Craaaaaap.
    See you are still putting limits on God here. You are saying he/she/it/them/----- can only see one defined outcome. You did not add into your argument that God can perhaps sees all outcomes and all times. If he/she/it/them/----- is truly omnipotent then they have no set bounds. Freedom of Choice still exists in an Omnipotent God view. Its only our small minds that prevent us from understanding Omnipotence. Can you imagine seeing every possible event for every possible action that you do let alone for every atom in the universe. Its not possible it would drive you mad. But that the beauty in an Omnipotent God. He/she/it/them/----- could by choice have existences where he/she/it/them/----- will intervene and be an active God yet in existences could be completely hands off. With a truly powerful God everything is possible.
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    Alpaca Prime The Naughtiest Monkey's Avatar
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    God schmod, i want my monkey-man.

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    Alpaca Prime missmuffet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wavilyem View Post
    The thing I wonder about is whether the Cylons' believe in the One True God came from an angel appearing to one of the Cylons even before Caprica Six resurrected and started seeing her Head Baltar.

    Oh, and it was awesome meeting you in person!
    That's entirely possible - though didn't Ellen say that they (the final final five) got the idea of the one true God from the centurians? If that is the case I think we might find that the answer to that question will be revealed in Caprica....

    It was awesome to meet you too!!!
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    Alpaca Prime Armando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missmuffet View Post
    That's entirely possible - though didn't Ellen say that they (the final final five) got the idea of the one true God from the centurians? If that is the case I think we might find that the answer to that question will be revealed in Caprica....

    It was awesome to meet you too!!!
    I do believe that's right. And the trailers for Caprica are full of talk of the "one true God." But it was the Final Five who'd had visions of the "angels." As far as we know (and, given their propensity for speech, how could we?), the centurions never saw head people.

    It would've been awesome to have met you, and everyone else. Maybe next year.

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